Christian suffering

Many people would have us believe that religion was invented to make our passage through life a little easier; to give us comfort, or to provide us with a ‘crutch’ to lean on. If this really were the case, then Christianity would not be a very attractive religion! For God never guarantees our physical safety (Mark 13:8; John 16:33). Jesus made this fact plain to Paul at the time of his conversion (Acts 9:16), and Paul made sure that all his own converts were aware of what they were signing up to: “We must go through many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God.” (Acts 14:22) There is a spiritual war on; and those who join the fight against Satan must expect to get attacked and injured. “This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.” (Revelation 13:10) The idea that belonging to God somehow entitles us to a problem-free life would have been utterly foreign to the first generation of Christians. But in our modern world we expect God to solve all our problems and relieve all our pains, just for the asking! No wonder so many believers end up disappointed and disillusioned.

One widespread teaching within the Church today is that God promises His people healing from every sickness and disease. The ‘proof-text’ that is usually quoted is Isaiah 53:5 – “by his wounds we are healed.” Matthew quotes the same passage, saying that it was fulfilled in Jesus’ healing ministry (Matthew 8:16,17). Yet not even the first-century church experienced 100% healing – and that was in the age of the apostles! We do find many instances of healing recorded in Acts (e.g Acts 3:1-10; 5:12-14; 8:5-7; 14:8-10); but it is worth noting that they are virtually all in the context of evangelism. Miraculous healing is one of the ‘signs’ by which God confirms the truth of the Gospel message (Hebrews 2:4); but the New Testament does not encourage us to claim it as the ongoing birthright of every believer. Tabitha was resurrected (Acts 9:40) – but not Stephen (Acts 8:2). Paul was on one occasion obliged to change his mission plans because of illness (Galatians 4:13,14) – and his comment that this illness was “a trial to you” does not suggest that any swift miraculous healing had taken place. Some years later, when his colleague Epaphroditus was seriously ill, it appears that Paul was expecting him to die (Philippians 2:27). Finally, his advice to Timothy concerning his stomach complaints was not ‘pray for healing’ but ‘drink a little wine’ (I Timothy 5:23)!

Christians in the affluent (and relatively safe) West often feel somewhat jealous of churches in poorer countries, where healings and other miracles seem to be far more frequent than they are here. There may be reasons for this, and I don’t think that it is any lack of faith on our part. If it is necessary for Christians to pass through hardships to enter God’s Kingdom, and if sickness is one of the few ‘hardships’ left in our rich and comfortable society, then we must expect God to use it frequently as a means of refining and disciplining us.

Being a Christian does not make us immune to problems and difficulties – it may even increase them (because persecution is added to all the normal evils that everyone suffers). But it should make a difference to how we respond to them. It even enables us to rejoice – not in the bad things themselves but because we can look through them to see what lies beyond. There is no situation so desperate or hopeless that God cannot transform it and turn it to good (Psalm 30:11).

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29 Responses to Christian suffering

  1. Vegeta says:

    Another great well thought out post Debora. I believe it is always because of a lack of faith that we dont see healing today.

    Matt 17:19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart and said, “Why could we not cast him out?”
    Matt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, “Because of your unbelief; for verily I say unto you, if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, ‘Remove hence to yonder place,’ and it shall remove. And nothing shall be impossible unto you.
    Clearly this scripture yell us the apostles lacked faith. And that was after they were sent out and came back praising God for all the done and seen.
    So add in the verses you quoted Isaiah 53:5 and Matthew 8:16,17.
    Then add look at.
    John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
    13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
    this is the commision. If it doesnt work its clearly lack of faith.
    The proff of faith is not the prayer said. The proff is the Mountian moved.
    Jesus paid for our healing at the wipping post. Why else was He whipped. That is the very reason we break the body/bread that was broken for us, for our healing. We drink thecup/ blood for our sin.
    His body broken that ours would be whole/healed. His blood spilt ,so we could be free from sin.
    Matt 9:5 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But so that you might know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin . . . .” Then he said to the paralytic, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” Same to Jesus.
    So if the teacher are going to teach its not for today how wil the know? Its not only our riches in the west that keeps us from seeing healing its our teaching.
    jesus paid the price so we dont have to. Sickness will come thats the warning. Because you will be attacked if you follow Christ Not belive in Him. Following brings the suffering, which we concider all joy as there is always a learning, a blessing , a joy in suffering knowing you are doing and in the will of God. Not many are suffering in the chuches today. There no more or even less sickness in church that any where else. So we are not suffering for Christ but just the same as the rest of the unblievers, we suffer equally. Healing is available to those that believe.
    The countrys like Africa, China and India, they all see more than us because of faith. Faith may well be brought to the fore because they dont have what we have here doctors hospitals at hand etc.
    If you have nothing to turn to that only leaves God and the storys you heard.
    Jesus paid for healing. There are many other verses that say the same thing. Gods will is always to heal. Jesus healed them all. He only done the Fathers will. Every where He went He healed them all.
    I could share about Paul and timothy and a couple of others who people refrence when saying healing is not for today. Paul wasnt sick. Tims stomach was an ongoing thing because of the water. take wine instead of water. The wine was very weak back then chidren got wine.
    We dont have to go thorugh and live out the hardships. Every thing with a name bends the knee to the name of Jesus. There are many many Christians walking in full health today because of what they believe. You r words are life and death. They are speaking life into them selves and the rest are speaking death to them selves. Its one or the other.
    Thank you for allowing me to post here.

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    • Deborah says:

      Up to a point I agree with you – but remember that even though Jesus paid the price for sin and came to take away our sins (I John 3:5), we remain sinful in this life. Why should sickness be any different? Yes, He often does heal us; but we remain in mortal bodies and unless He returns sooner, we will all eventually die of something or other. This fact alone proves that healing is not an absolute right that everyone can claim by faith for every sickness.
      Sometimes the reason for our failure IS lack of faith – but beware of assuming that is always the reason: such an assumption causes people immense pain.

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  2. Vegeta says:

    Why would Jesus tell people to go and sin no more if it was impossible?
    So if Jesus often heals us. How is it that He doesnt heal others. God says He will do for one what He wil do for another, God has no favourites. That looks like another contradiction on Gods part if what you say is true. The heart of God was clearly shown through Christ. He healed them all. Jesus never left one sick anywhere in His ministry. So God who never changes. Is now maybe yes and maybe no? Thats is not God either. God is constant. We are told to go lay hands on the sick and they will be healed. Very few Christians do that. Some see some healing some see more that 50% and some see more than that. But if we dont believe it is for today and that it is Gods will to heal all. Then there is no faith there, how could there be any faith there? So today we teach God does not heal all. So that is what is going to grow. and is evident today. The people who believe that God heals all today see God heal at least some. I was in a church chasing God for 21 years never saw one person healed other than by a doctor. Left that church moved to another church who taught God heals through us today. and I have seen more people healed. My wife included in four years than the whole church saw in 21 years I was there. Not one ever got healed. So I can not be moved to go back to thinking God doesnt use us to lay hands on the sick. I have not seen all I prayed for healed. So I look for whats up. Jesus teaches lack of faith and this type only comes out with fasting and praying. Both are telling us time with God alone. So we are growing into Him.
    Yes we will all die once. But no where does it say it will or has to be in sickness.All the scriptures that speak of life and health and healing are to many. James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
    Both verses say IF you are sick and IF you have sinned. Telling us you should not be sick but if you are etc. And if you have sinned saying its possible you neevr. Therefore its possible to not sin for a period of time at least. If a hour is possible, than so is a day. and so on. Again I reapet Jesus said go and sin no more. Because it is possible. As we die to self growing into Him. As we represent Him every where we go.
    Lack of faith is a biblical fact Jesus said to them. If He said it to the apostles. That would go for us to.

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    • Deborah says:

      “Why would Jesus tell people to go and sin no more if it was impossible?”
      He is fond of hyperbolic language and tells us to do many things that are actually impossible – such as “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) Why might He do that? Not because we have a realistic possibility of achieving the goal, but because it gives us the clear message that we should never make any compromise with sin. In reality, as John says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves.” (I John 1:8) But that doesn’t justify a fatalistic attitude towards it (“I’ll sin anyway, so I won’t even make the effort to be holy”).
      Similarly with healing: I do think we should always pray for it. “You do not have, because you do not ask God.” (James 4:2) The more we pray for, the more we are likely to see (and my church has seen quite a few!) But when I read the New Testament I have to confess that I see very few examples of disciples/believers being healed (Aeneas and Dorcas are the only ones that spring to mind, in Acts 9; so also Epaphroditus in Philippians 2:27, but Paul doesn’t seem to have expected his recovery!). New Testament healings are virtually always in the context of evangelism, as a sign of the Kingdom breaking in.

      Although we do get the general impression that Jesus went round healing ‘everybody’, when you look at the detail it doesn’t quite seem that way. There was a great crowd of disabled people around the pool of Bethesda – but Jesus apparently picked out just one man (John 5:1-9). Also, we are told in Acts 3 that a man lame for over 40 years used to beg at the Beautiful Gate of the Temple. Do you really imagine that Jesus had never walked past him during His many visits to Jerusalem? Yet he was still there (and still lame) when the apostles were preaching after the crucifixion and resurrection.

      There’s another aspect to the Christian life that must also be kept in mind: the absolute necessity for suffering and discipline in this life (Hebrews 12:4-11). At present we only have the down-payment or deposit of our inheritance (Ephesians 1:13,14); only when we get to the new earth will there “be no more death or mourning or crying or pain.” (Revelation 21:4)

      I can’t agree with you that the word “if” implies a situation that should never happen. For a start, James doesn’t actually say, “IF anyone among you is ill” but “IS anyone among you ill?” Just as he has said in the previous verse, “IS anyone in trouble, or happy?” (James 5:13) If we’re never meant to be ill, then logically we should never be happy either!

      In summary, while I agree with you that we probably are lacking in faith when it comes to this subject, that isn’t the whole explanation. To say that God’s will for everyone is health/healing is over-simplistic; it’s emphasising one strand of NT teaching at the expense of other possibly more important ones. And it appeals to us because we’d all like an easy life…

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  3. Vegeta says:

    “He is fond of hyperbolic language and tells us to do many things that are actually impossible – such as “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48) Why might He do that? Not because we have a realistic possibility of achieving the goal, but because it gives us the clear message that we should never make any compromise with sin.”

    I am really struggling with this. I found a few passages and all of them including the one you quoted and the one I quoted
    Jesus said Go and sin no more. To the woman
    “Be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48)
    1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
    1John 2.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
    6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
    10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
    13 I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you,
    14 I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

    So with what you say in your opening praragraph. All of these verses would be as weil in the bin. If some one was addressing me in that way I would not be in there company long.
    This is total confusion.

    1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
    If what you are saying is true. This is confusion. What other language did He have. How are we to know what He ment, and what he was joking about. Stop sinning but you cant. Do this but you cant it makes no sense at all to me. We are Holy in his sight sanctifiied. Joint aires with Christ. We are growing into Him. We are to fully represent Him on the earth . Even the word Christian means we are little Christ like ones. No were in the NT does God call you a sinner.
    “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves.” (I John 1:8)
    This is refering to what we are without Christ. What we were until we meet with Christ..
    Paul says he is chief sinner. Its his past hes talking about. He put Christians to death.Where do you read of the apostles sinning. They were ordinary men like the rest of us. They never continued in sin. We have many verses telling you what will be your end if you continue in sin. So according to your thinking we always sin and there for cannot live a life without sinning there for we will go to hell.
    I dont live a life sinning everyday to my knowleadge. If I was Holy Ghost would make me aware of It I live for God every Day I thank Him for changing me As I represent Christ daily. I seek to set people free. I do what we are told to do. I lay hands on the sick almost every day. If Ithought like you Maybe God will Maybe God wont again. I would not do it. That is shambolic. Gods desire is seen thriugh Christs life lived. He healed them all. He healed thousands and then accuse Him of walking past a couple. Dont you know that if all He done were written the whole world couldnt contain the books? You think its possible, some never got healed because of that. He healed them all every where He went. How many times does the bible say that?

    Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.
    Matthew 8:16
    “When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick,”
    Matthew 14:14
    “And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.”
    Matthew 19:2
    “And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them there.”
    Matthew 21:14
    “Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.”
    Matthew 12:15
    “But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, and He healed them all.”
    Mark 6:56
    “Wherever He entered, into villages, cities, or the country, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and begged Him that they might just touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched Him were made well.”
    Mark 3:10
    “For He healed many, so that as many as had afflictions pressed about Him to touch Him.”
    Luke 4:40
    “When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.”
    Luke 6:19
    “And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.”
    Luke 5:17
    “Now it happened on a certain day, as He was teaching, that there were Pharisees and teachers of the law sitting by, who had come out of every town of Galilee, Judea, and Jerusalem. And the power of the Lord was present to heal them.”
    Luke 9:1
    “Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.”
    Luke 9:11
    “But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.”
    John 14:12
    “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.”

    Pretty conclusive He healed them all. But you say four people who never got healed.

    Havent checked but I would say the four you mentioned was after His ressurection.

    You may mention his home town. He heald but a few. They rejected Him and they never went to Him. He healed then that came to Him for healing. The rest ridiculed Him.

    I just never seen any point in going further with what you wrote. I think this is plenty for now.
    I really hope you are not offended at me. Thank you for letting me post again.

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    • Deborah says:

      I’m not offended at you, but you do seem to have problems taking all scripture into account.
      I John is written to believers (I John 5:13) – so it’s believers he’s talking about in 1:8, not those “without Christ”. The apostles sinned – Paul had to rebuke Peter in Antioch (Galatians 2:14) and had to apologise for insulting the high priest (Acts 23:4,5). Those are just two occasions that we happen to know about. Now I’m sure that neither you nor I sin frequently (probably not every day) – but sin we do, and the closer we are to God the more aware of our sins we will be. That doesn’t mean we’ll go to Hell, because our sins are cleansed by Jesus’ death (I John 1:7,9).

      If God has called you to a ministry of healing, I am sure He will do great works through you. We both believe that Jesus Christ still heals today, even if we have to ‘agree to disagree’ on how often.

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      • Vegeta says:

        So in the whole of the new testiment we find two sins. There are many many NT people opperating like Christ. ANd no sins recored. Wonder if it is because we can live sinless lives. .And was the high prist offended at Jesus. Did john the baptist not offended them when He called them a brood of vipers.
        I think we are well aware of almost all of our sin. So if we can go one day with out sin we can go two. and the closer to God we stay the less chance of sin entering our thoughts and actions. And a lot of the wrong thoughts in our minds are not even us but satan. Who drops one in there with good timing and we either fall for it and run with it or as we are growing into Christ recognise it and expose the lie/liar.
        Go never called me to a he\ling ministry. Some one pointed out what the bible says and it contrdicts what I was taught in church for 21 years. We have a commision to set the captives free. We have a green light to lay hands on the sick and they will recover. We are commanded to do to another what we would have done to our selves. If you were sick would you not want healed. Believers not apostles not the specially gifted. Lay hands on the sick that is the good news. Most Christians have been taught say this prayer and you can go to heaven. I dont have a gift or anointing. I read it I believed it and I Follow Christs example. So if it was me who had the gift why is it that when I explian this to my Wife and to my children they catch it and run with it. They are all laying hands on the sick and seeing them recover. Why is it when I started telling others who will listen that they also can do this. That they spend time listening and learning and are now running with it.
        Out lack of faith is the only thing that holds us back nothing else. Well other than all the misteaching we had in ALL the churches through the last 1600 years. God is looking for those who would belive and go. He will use anyone. There is no leading of Holy Ghost in this. I know Holy Ghost can lead at times. If you wait for thta and dont do the commisuion You will leave a lot of sick people behind you for no reason scriptural. Dont like even mentioning the ferrets name , but satan came to staal kill and destroy. Christ came to give life, and life more abundent. Christains are not living in abundant life. In any part of there life. But this is really simple. We folow Jesus we have the same Spirit that raised Jesus to life living in us. Fullness of the God head to help us put the old man to death. It should not take long. It is not a life progress. But we are all living for our selves today. And we refuse to look at this. I had to leave my church as I coulb not listen to the lies that were getting put out from the pulpit. And I loved and love all who were in that church and spent 6 months trying to reach them. They are still sitting there dieing and have all seen the people I ptayed for healed and still refuse to come and ask for healing . They sit and suffer, because they were offended at me leaving. So any thing I say now is a lie. Its exactly the same as the way Jesus was treated and He told us. Anyway . There is no scriptures telling you you must wait to be lead.

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      • Deborah says:

        Do you really expect the New Testament to itemise every single apostolic sin? Of course it doesn’t; but it tells us enough for us to know that not even the apostles were sinless. When the apostle John writes, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves” (I John 1:8), he includes himself in the ‘we’! So your argument doesn’t convince me.

        Do you not believe in gifts of healing (I Corinthians 12:9)? The Holy Spirit often uses verses such as Mark 16:17,18 to call people into a ministry – but you can’t interpret those verses to say that every Christian must do all the things listed, because Paul tells us that not all Christians speak in tongues or perform miracles (I Corinthians 12:29,30). Do you also think that we should all be handling snakes and drinking poison?

        So where is the place of suffering in the Christian life as you see it? “Life to the full” does not exclude suffering… we see this in the New Testament time and time again. This is why, although I applaud your willingness to go and lay hands on the sick, I find your position totally inadequate and unscriptural. Unless you can address this issue, I think we will have to draw this conversation to a close.

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  4. Vegeta says:

    I would like to ask if you were going to pray for healing for me what would you say in the prayer?
    Just interested because of the following quote.
    I just think there might be a huge stumbling block here. Thanks.

    Similarly with healing: I do think we should always pray for it. “You do not have, because you do not ask God.” (James 4:2) The more we pray for, the more we are likely to see

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    • Deborah says:

      That would depend on whether the Holy Spirit gave me any word of knowledge, or faith for healing. Without specific guidance, I would simply ask Jesus to heal you.

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  5. Vegeta says:

    You have all the faith you will ever need. You had a musteard seed to get saved. And that is all you need to move a mountian. Its all to do with mind renewal. Jesus never healed anyone in the scritpures. God heals. Your commision is to go lay hands on the sick every where you go. So that is every day. Thats the life we are called to. We command the demons to Go we dont ask God we dont ask Jesus and we dont wait for The Holy Spirit to tell us to go. Its great when He does tell you. Its sensational. But daily living is doing unto others as you would have them do to you. We have a thousand reasons not to go and you mention one of the most common ones.Waiting on Holy Ghost. Its not in scripture. we have a green light to go any where to any one and its always gods will to heal. Your only part is Go and believe. No many go and not many believe. Jesus said will I find any faith when I return.

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    • Deborah says:

      In order to move a mountain, I have to know that God wants to move it. As a young Christian, I tried boldly stepping out without specific guidance – and learned my lesson. Because it isn’t always God’s will to heal.
      Many years ago, I got to know a blind man who was regularly irritated and embarrassed by Christians walking up to him in the street and wanting to lay hands on him for his healing. He never was healed… it just made him angry and turned him against Christianity. I mention this just to point out that the ‘go and heal everybody’ approach has its casualties as well as its success stories.

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  6. Vegeta says:

    Did you ever see Jesus refuse? No. Did you ever see Jesus say its not Gods will ever ? No. Or say what you said? No. Its not in the bible our experiance does not supercede the bible ever. It only has casaulties if you are in a lack of faith. Its nothing to do with the person being prayed for. Its to do with the faith of them offering help. There are many with the same story as you, I tried it and it never worked. The bible tells you to go lay hands on the sick. And it does not tell you if or when you are lead. You are told to go lay hands on the sick raise the dead cast out demons and no leading. You have a green light to go and do this as you go. Not ever did Jesus mention dont do it until you are lead. If we have casualties as you say. Its because we lack faith nothing else. The evidance of faith is NOT prayer. Its the moutain moving. I prayed for a guy with cancer , he died three days later. You think I can now say ahh well I dont wont to see his familys pain and frustration again. SO I wont pray for anyone again. No we are told to go and we keep going and keep praying as we grow into Him. So I would assume you havent prayed ever again. Or the times that you did pray because you felt lead. Then that would be 100% of people healed that you felt lead to pray for? Other wise why would God lead you to pray if they were not healed.
    So I need to ask. Did you stop praying?
    Or if you felt lead to pray, did they all get healed?

    We all say how much we fall short of Christs glory.
    So why then if that is the case do we expect to see full results from the start for healing.
    The deciples healed many and then came the boy they couldnt heal. Jesus told them Your lack of faith. He also said this type only moves withj fasting and prayer. Both of these are getting closer to God. Its all about relationship. people read the bible to get to know there bible. We need to read it to get to know Him. There are many outstanding teacher out there today teaching on healing today .
    We dont have a right to refuse to go. Pick up your cross and follow me. Its going to be painfull. Thats why we signed up in the first place, not just a ticket for heaven.
    Jesus healed them all and we are to follow Him. We dont have a choise. well we do. But the tears to be whipped away in heaven I believe will be tears of regret for a while. Am sorry Lord I never new. I think that will be the most common sentance for the first period of time. It dont think it will be tears of Joy to start with.

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    • Deborah says:

      “The bible tells you to go lay hands on the sick.”
      Where? There is no command of that nature in the New Testament binding on every single Christian. We are told that Christians (in general) will frequently heal the sick, cast out demons, drink poison without harm, etc – but that is NOT a command to everyone to do all those things, all the time.

      “I prayed for a guy with cancer , he died three days later.”
      So who lacked faith? You? Him? Or nobody – because his appointed time to die had come? If every failure to heal is to be blamed on somebody’s lack of faith, then we are all in a very bleak place indeed – personally responsible for so much suffering.

      “So I need to ask. Did you stop praying?
      Or if you felt lead to pray, did they all get healed?”
      Of course I continue to pray for the sick (and I don’t need any special leading to pray for them) – what I don’t normally have the authority to do is guarantee any particular outcome.

      I repeat: where is the place of suffering in the Christian life as you see it? “Life to the full” does not exclude suffering… we see this in the New Testament time and time again. This is the subject of the original post – and unless you can address the issue, this conversation will be ended.

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      • Vegeta says:

        We are not told Christians in genearl will do as you said General is you word that you are adding Deborah. Where do you read it is not a command to every one. That is not there. You are adding that.
        I lacked faith when I prayed for they guy I knew it as I was there. I was in fear. Fear is not faith faer is what if it doesnt work. Faith is making the promise it will work contradicting what you said about making promises. There is an appointed time for every man. NO where is scripture doers it say you have to die sick. And yes it is a bleak place because of Christians failing to see who it is and what it is that dwells in them. and if we have Teachers like you telling its not possible. how will they know who will tell them? We have all been taught wrong things in Church. But if someone bring something else best to look at it and add decermant. Brfore trying to make scripture fir or threaten them with shutting them down. Christ never threated anyone and was never threatend by anyones opinion.

        Can you give me another scripture for why healing never woked?

        You said ealier that you prayed if you” felt lead”
        You are now saying you dont need to feel lead. Good.
        So we are agreed that we dont nead to be lead.
        If we take do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
        So you see a person with a limp how do you work out if you will pray for them. You obviously pass some sick people in your daily life. So what scripture gives you the green light to leave them suffering. Although if they could help you ,you would want them to.

        If in fear for failure. You dont need to tell them you are going to get healed 100%
        As long as you belive they will. Then that is a good place to start.
        But As i asked you how do you pray. You are asking God to heal them.
        God is saying I already did. You lay hands and it WILL manifest.
        Our unbelief is the mountian not the sickness. All your battles are in the mind spiritual. We are beliveing the liar. we for get all the scriptures all Gods promises, and our experiances suprseed Gods word.
        Now you said I repeat” where is the place of suffering”

        Why are you threatning me with shutting me down. I asked you if you have any where to talk about healing you pointed me here. Now you are threatning me with shutting me down if I dont answer your question. Thats not very nice or Christ like. You shut me down a little further up and then went on to ask three questions that I cant answer because you shut me down. Why would you do that. Jesus wouldnt would he? I see this pattern every where I go. People want to tell you the bible. They are not prepared to listen to what you have to say. Jesus always listend and tell us to do like wise. You want me to talk about suffering Christians and yet You are unprepared to suffer even me just speaking what I believe. I am right now seeking God in the secret p[lace on my knees asking Him for His heart. asking Him to help me love a dying world thats heading for hell. I am asking God to help me die and lay down my life for real. So He can use me fully, for His porpose. My whole village is laughing at me . My frinds have turned there back on me. My church of 21 years have also lauged and ridiculed me behind my back. People cant wait to come and tell you.
        So I was at a confrence when I guy came up to pray for me. He said God honours you. I thought well thats nice. He said God honours you for what you are teaching. I thought This guy doesnt know what I am teaching. He sais God honours you for what it cost you. I thought it never cost me anything. They guy said yes it did. That was nothing less than God. I hope you caught it. SO God said it has cost me. Suffering = cost.

        I am sorry If I missed you quesion on suffering. But you never addressed the replys I gave you.
        So if you cant suffer me any more then shut me down as you like.
        I cant believe you knowing as much scripture as you do refuse to except that we are to act in love always. No way round that. No one is getting blamed for the failures as we are growing into him and there is NO condemantion in Christ. If I pray for 20 people and they all die. I will pray for number 21. These signs will follow believers. Any thing you ask and keep believeing . Its the Fathers good pleasure. Nothing will be impossible to you. Its real clear.

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      • Deborah says:

        “We are not told Christians in genearl will do as you said General is you word that you are adding Deborah. Where do you read it is not a command to every one. That is not there. You are adding that.”
        I presume you are referring to Mark 16:17,18. Yes – “Christians in general” is how I interpret these verses, and I have already explained why but you have not taken account of or reacted to my explanation. That is one reason why I think this conversation is going nowhere. I haven’t “shut you down” yet; but I don’t do that without giving warning.

        To repeat myself: The Holy Spirit often uses verses such as Mark 16:17,18 to call people into a ministry – but you can’t interpret those verses to say that every Christian must do all the things listed, because Paul tells us that not all Christians speak in tongues or perform miracles (I Corinthians 12:29,30). Do you also think that we should all be handling snakes and drinking poison?

        “You said ealier that you prayed if you” felt lead”
        You are now saying you dont need to feel lead. Good.
        So we are agreed that we dont nead to be lead.”
        Actually, I didn’t say that I would ‘only pray if I felt led’. I said that I would pray differently if I had specific leading. That’s not the same.

        I personally do not believe that faith and fear are incompatible. Nehemiah was “very much afraid” when he made his request to the Persian emperor (Nehemiah 2:1-6), but God granted his prayer and he was authorised to carry out his mission.

        To finish: If God has given you a burden for the sick and is calling you to do this, then I don’t want to discourage or stop you. But don’t berate everyone else for not doing the same as you, because we’re not all clones, and we have different ministries.

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  7. Vegeta says:

    The command is in
    Matt 28:20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    Mandate to “make disciples of all nations” given by Christ to his disciples following his death and resurrection ( Matt 28:16-20 ; Mark 16:15-18 ; Luke 24:46-49 ; John 20:21-23 ; Acts 1:8 ). Because Christ has been given all authority in heaven and on earth ( Matt 28:19 ), the Great Commission is to be taken with the utmost seriousness by all of his disciples, “to the very end of the age” ( Matt 28:20 ).

    The impetus for the Commission springs from the heart of God. He loved us and gave his Son or us ( John 3:16 ). The disciples are sent out to accomplish what God had started in the sending of his Son ( John 20:21 ). The Great Commission is thus linked to God’s words to Abraham: that “all peoples on earth will be blessed through you” ( Gen 12:3 ).

    The Commission is accomplished through witnessing ( Acts 1:8 ), preaching ( Mark 16:15 ), baptizing, and teaching ( Matt 28:20 ). Jesus’ disciples are to replicate themselves in the lives of those who respond to the Good News. The Holy Spirit is the empowering agent for those who witness ( Acts 1:8 ), as well as the one who convicts sinners of their need for Jesus ( John 16:8-11 ). The disciples will have success because Jesus, the Lord of heaven and earth, will be with them as they undertake their assignment ( Matt 28:20 ).

    The Commission necessitates taking the gospel message to “the ends of the earth” ( Acts 1:8 ), to “all nations” ( Matt 28:19 ). The Good News is to be shared with all peoples, for all are sinners, Jews and Gentile alike, and in need of deliverance from sin ( Rom 3 ). All peoples, by faith, can receive God’s provision and are baptized into Christ. In Christ, all distinctions between Jew and Gentile disappear ( Rom 10:12-13 ; Gal 3:28 ).

    Glenn E. Schaefer

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  8. Vegeta says:

    The command is in
    Matt 28:20. and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
    Jesus layed hands on the sick. So did the deciples so did the seventy.
    And you are to do ALL things Jesus done that is the commision.
    Dont you know that you will do even greater things than these. Jesus said. Because I go to the Father.

    You Said the command is NOT in the new Teastiment.
    I gave you the scripture which is clearly a huge part of our commison.
    Now you are saying I dont see lay hands anywhere.
    Jesus said this is for the believer.
    You are clearly following a pattern I have seen so many times from Cjristian jumping from one thing to another to make it fit you experiance and past wrong teachings. and you are going to continuse in this wrong teaching. and you are responcible for the teaching. and you will be healed to a higher account off what you taught. James tells you. You chosse to ifnore every thing I have said to you. with very short replys. I seen you as a woman who knew heer scriptures. You may well know Scripture but you are reading and studing scripture to know scipture. You need to read scripture to know Him. Nothing else. You are reading scripture to prove me wrong. That is not of God. That is all about you. If you are going to judge this on what YOU think. You will lose. If you take this to God and ask Lord is there any truth in this. Then you will see it. You decide. I know full well how hurt you are at this point me exposing you on your own page. But this was not nessisery. You continued persuing what you think. I could go over every thing you said and expiose all the times you have contradicted and changesd what you think. Its about fives times. Please just slow down and read all I have said again. You are scrapping about to try and prove me wrong.

    Like

    • Deborah says:

      I apologise for my ‘short’ answers, but I am a person of few words and that is how I write.

      I’m sorry, but you seem to be finding fault with any Christian who reads the whole Bible and doesn’t base their thinking on just one or two verses. “Let Scripture interpret Scripture” is a fundamental principle: we have to allow what the apostles wrote in the New Testament letters to inform our understanding of what Jesus said in the Gospels. This is why I find I Corinthians 12 highly relevant to the discussion. If you disagree, can you not explain why instead of just repeatedly ignoring it?

      There is such a great gulf between us here that I think further discussion is pointless. In any case, it has gone off-topic.

      Conversation closed.

      Like

  9. Vegeta says:

    I cant pin point it although I am trying you have so much right here and so much wrong. I think its that you know the bible and dont know Jesus, Being a doctor and academic which is clear for all to see here, all your life your like all the other Christian doctors I know. Very sceptical about what we can do in regards to healing. They also are what we call unbeleiving beleivers. These signs follow those that believe. So they wont follow you believeing what you believe Deborah this is why you never see healing first hand. Your church may have as you said but you never. Did you?
    You tried it failed and ran away from it. many have done the same thing as you. It comes from misteaching. So its not you fault. Its not there fault. Its been taught like this for 1600 years. satan (small s give him no place) is the liar and he lied to the church. Its no ones fault. But you are getting hurt, thinking I am singling you out on you page.
    Its not personal. I got about telling what the bible says and many many reject it and ultimitly me.
    You are one of many in a long long line. You never scripturally proved me wrong. But becaue you have the power to delete me here. You hide behind that. This is costing you sleep. I already know that. Thats how deep this is running with you.

    Do you really know the love of Jesus? God wants your heart not your head.
    Seek the relationship in your room alone where no one can see you. Ask Him for what you always wanted. He loves you. And so do I Deborah.

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    • Deborah says:

      Well, now you’re making an awful lot of assumptions about me, aren’t you? Certainly it would be very difficult (probably impossible) to combine a professional medical career with a spiritual healing ministry; but since God has never (yet) called me to be a healer, that was a choice I never had to make.

      Actually, I’ve been healed myself four times; the first two were unasked for and unexpected (the first was at my conversion), the third took 4 years and I thought it would never happen. There are also many things over the years that I have not been healed of. The one thing that I have become convinced of (from Scripture and from personal experience) is that there are no ‘rules’. There’s no universal promise of healing – God is sovereign. ‘Lack of faith’ is sometimes a barrier to healing, but not necessarily. And since Scripture clearly states that not all Christians have the gift of healing (I Corinthians 12:30), it doesn’t worry me in the least that I don’t. It shouldn’t worry you either.

      And so, if anyone’s losing sleep over this, it’s not me.

      Like

  10. Vegeta says:

    Well I am pleased toy decided to not delete my post.
    No its not impossible but there are many doctors who struggled with it and nurses. I know a woamn who had her own department in Manchester hospital, Cant mind her title but it was a double barrel title. She was a gynaecologist and done opperations herself. And by her own admission most of her pataince died. She joined the group of pros who deicate there skills at times to go to thrid world countrys to help and be in Gods will. She thought she was doing Gods will all her life being a doctor.
    She went to a Country and they had the confrence. Her leader gave his testimony on all the are doing and all they belive they are called to. Then a woman from third world country. stood up next to speak. She said God does not use doctors to heal. and that went down like a lead ballon as it will with you. My friend took issue with the woamn. But the woamn had many testiomoies to her vredit. and my friend had very little. The woman said doctors are just no in the bible. So my friend who was very inteligent. went to study scripture to justify how God was with her in it all since the start. Long story short she coundnt justify it with scripture. So she went to the next yearly confernce and it was my friends turn to talk. She said I could have said about some testimonies of people she helped. She could hace told about all her quailfcations. But she could not talk. She refused. So the little woman get up again in her own country this time and took many people to give testimony to Gods grace through laying on of hands by a beliver. My friend wrote her resignation on the plane God told her to. She did and handed it in first day back. Then she went to tell her staff. and they were delighted to tell her. The machine we want came and better than that. we got 4 of these machines what ever they were. She then knoew that is why God had her wfite her resignation on the plane. If she saw four machines she would have though See God was in this and answerd my prayers.

    Any way 1Cor 12:30 It stateing a fact all dont and its the same today. Because they believe what you are teaching. If they believe like you believ they will never walk in it.
    The whole commision is to walk like Christ. We are all Christans little Christ like ones is what Christians means. We are all to do as He done. We dont need a green light we have it. we are to do unto others as we whould have them do to us. Some will do it and grow in it. Some wont. You choose not to. I choose to do what I am told. My frind gave up her carrear to go and be with the woman who had all the success in healing. She is now home and doing it all here. And no gift, She thought she was in Gods will as a doctor. The little woman expiosed that as false with out even speaking to her. My friend done her one scriptural resaesh and found nothing to back up that God wanted her or anyone to be a doctor.

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    • Deborah says:

      I’m afraid your interpretation of I Corinthians 12:30 doesn’t work in context. Yes, it’s a fact – but it’s a fact that Paul uses to support his teaching that we are a ‘body’ with diverse gifts and ministries. So he doesn’t imply that there’s anything wrong with it. The whole point of the chapter is that the Holy Spirit intends us to be all different (see verses 4-6,8-10,17).

      Like

  11. Vegeta says:

    Wow thats an awfull assumtion to make on someone you dont know. And to accuse her of being incompitant is terrible really. You never asked what period of time she worked in. You jumped right in and accused her of incompatincy.
    I see how you totally ignore what you dont want to deal with.
    So I am guessing you are saying we are NOT called to follow Christ in healing unless we have a special gifting of the Spirit. Is that true? And that we all need to find out what OUR speacial gift is?
    Yours is clearly not healing, by your own admission.
    Do you know what is yours and how would you tell someone how to find theres Scripturally?

    Like

    • Deborah says:

      If you want to discuss spiritual gifts, find a suitable post to do it on. There are plenty, and I may well have answered your question already. It’s not relevant to Christian suffering, and we have gone far enough off-topic.

      Like

  12. Vegeta says:

    I dont need to give her name its a testimony. And I do know her name I just never gave you it. Why would I need to? It is clearly cancer she worked in or why whould they most of them die, because of there illness. If you have a desire to check then you dont believe me so say so. Let you yes be a yes and your no be a no.
    She clearly is not an ordiary gynaecologist. I said she has a double barrel title.
    So why would you be so horrified if she is telling the truth. You are claiming she was unfit for the job and she ran the whole department. She was in Charge. I dont see why you would jump in like you did and say the things you did. Thats horrifing to me.
    Maybe you should have thought ovarian before jumping in and accusing?
    I dont even care to try and change your mind on this. the way you spoike here is dreadfull.

    So shes a liar or I am. Thanks for that.

    As I said already I asked about healing YOU pointed me here. You never answersd many things I brought up here.
    You deleted my on topic posts. Kinda hard to stay in the game with all the deleting. Close them down fine. But dont delete all the truth I posted that you could not deal with scripturally.

    PS spiritual gifts is not litrialy NOT scriptural.

    Like

    • Deborah says:

      I’m very sorry… I thought I could guess what you meant by ‘mind her title’, but obviously I got completely the wrong idea. And there are other things that I could easily have misunderstood. So I’m withdrawing all comments relating to the story; I can’t safely say anything.

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  13. Vegeta says:

    Theres no condemnation in Christ.

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